User:Oskykins/More writings and notes (talk)

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IRC Rue Conversation=

2014-03-29 21:43:53 lolwut|PJosepherum but i realised today that inhibiting MAOs is a really dirty hack 2014-03-29 21:44:01 @oskykins what do you mean? 2014-03-29 21:44:04 -- lolwut|PJosepherum is now known as PJosepherum 2014-03-29 21:45:52 PJosepherum MAO-A and -B break down monamines; this includes alkaloids like dmt, nicotine, ethanol, opioids, etc, but also includes endogenous hormones. because the chemicals are not being inactivated, they build up in the axons 2014-03-29 21:45:52 [21:45] 2014-03-29 21:46:00 PJosepherum causing, basically, friction 2014-03-29 21:46:13 PJosepherum hence overheating 2014-03-29 21:46:23 PJosepherum i have such a bad headache 2014-03-29 21:47:45 PJosepherum build up of epinephrine i think, or maybe the GABAergic system made me very twitchy. I was essentially in REM while awake lol 2014-03-29 21:47:55 @oskykins how much rue did you take? 2014-03-29 21:47:57 PJosepherum very disphoric though because of the stress 2014-03-29 21:48:41 PJosepherum erm, i pulverised ~3g with a hammer then brewed for 3 hours 2014-03-29 21:49:00 PJosepherum in less than 20ml water 2014-03-29 21:50:21 @oskykins aww ): when i took 5g grounded up, i had no negative body load 2014-03-29 21:50:58 PJosepherum brewing the harmala in water allowed for dissolution of the alkaloids, which increased their bioavailability i think 2014-03-29 21:51:19 PJosepherum whole seeds were inactive, shorter duration of brewing gave spotty results 2014-03-29 21:51:25 @oskykins awesome. :D how are you brewing it? 2014-03-29 21:52:05 @oskykins do you get extreme stimulation initially from rue and then extreme sedation at the end? 2014-03-29 21:52:17 PJosepherum stir harmala and enough boiling water to cover the solids in a mug, leave to extract 2014-03-29 21:52:26 PJosepherum both simultaniously 2014-03-29 21:52:33 PJosepherum simultaneously 2014-03-29 21:53:05 PJosepherum either will appear more prevalent in alternation 2014-03-29 21:53:51 PJosepherum so like, it began as sedation with a pleasant glow as the axons filled up, then certain receptors were hyperactivated causing stimulation 2014-03-29 21:54:47 PJosepherum it fluctuated. there was a sense of fullness throughout my body lol. distortions i think are not intrinsic to the effects of DMT 2014-03-29 21:55:19 PJosepherum harmala causes distortions by hyperactivating neural circuits via flooding of axons 2014-03-29 21:55:34 PJosepherum which can cause damage 2014-03-29 21:55:45 PJosepherum and unnecessary stress 2014-03-29 21:57:05 PJosepherum if harmala supposedly stops being selective for MOA-A at 5g+ seeds, i wonder what preparation "5g of seeds" is lol 2014-03-29 21:57:35 PJosepherum long extracts of low quantities of harmala is probably safe and fun 2014-03-29 21:57:36 @oskykins wait can you explain the brewing process again? i put grounded rue in a mug, pour boiling water onto it from an electric kettle, stir it, and then what? 2014-03-29 21:59:10 PJosepherum then wait for the alkaloids to dissolve into solution. there is a concentration gradient between the solids and the liquid; with time, the gradient homogenises so there will be the same concentration of alkaloids in the solid seeds as in the solvent 2014-03-29 22:00:05 PJosepherum so 3 hours at room temperature is ample time; citric/acetic acid will speed up the dissolution 2014-03-29 22:00:50 PJosepherum 30 minutes has been my fastest effective duration 2014-03-29 22:02:04 @oskykins thanks pjose :DD i am going to try this in the next week or so 2014-03-29 22:02:04 [22:02] 2014-03-29 22:02:13 @oskykins what did you mean by extract though? 2014-03-29 22:03:04 PJosepherum it is the beta-carbolines which are responsible for the effects of harmala alkaloids. ergo, they can be separated from the seed matter by dissolution into a solvent 2014-03-29 22:03:17 PJosepherum soaking in water is essentially the extraction method 2014-03-29 22:03:20 PJosepherum brewing 2014-03-29 22:04:05 PJosepherum same as tea bags; the content of the plant material infuses throughout the solvent 2014-03-29 22:05:12 PJosepherum the gastrointestinal system cannot absorb fibrous seed matter; instead it operates on the mechanism of dissolution and absorption 2014-03-29 22:06:02 PJosepherum stomach is full of liquid which soaks the plant matter, then the intestines mechanically press the material to squeeze out the solvent and any dissolved substances 2014-03-29 22:06:49 PJosepherum er, but items only stay in the stomach for a limited period, so internal brewing time is limited ultimately. this is why external brewing is more reliable 2014-03-29 22:07:01 PJosepherum the material is already in solution so can skip the internal soak stage 2014-03-29 22:07:07 PJosepherum and go straight to absorption 2014-03-29 22:07:24 PJosepherum 3g for 3 hours was too strong 2014-03-29 22:08:00 PJosepherum lol i've been saying preganum for days, it's peganum xD 2014-03-29 22:09:21 @oskykins lol hopefully i can save some money by brewing the rue 2014-03-29 22:09:33 PJosepherum ok, so beta-carboline content is between 2-7% depending on quality. average is 3%. 3% of 3g is maybe 30mg harmala alkaloids 2014-03-29 22:09:33 @oskykins i'm going to try this this week 2014-03-29 22:10:01 PJosepherum dude, low dose peganum can totally save money on drugs. if you're careful, coadministration can result in huge potentiation 2014-03-29 22:10:18 PJosepherum of i expect all psychoactives 2014-03-29 22:10:35 @oskykins what drugs combine well with rue? i know 4-aco/shrooms and LSD do 2014-03-29 22:11:28 PJosepherum anything euphoric or reinforcing will combine beautifully; opioids i bet will intensify an unreasonable amount 2014-03-29 22:11:47 PJosepherum ethanol was enhanced 2014-03-29 22:11:57 PJosepherum erm, stimulants become uncomfortable 2014-03-29 22:12:10 PJosepherum twitchy and anxious; caffeine and nicotine both exhibit this response 2014-03-29 22:12:39 PJosepherum it's dangerous to experiment because of the beta-carbolines' clearance half-life 2014-03-29 22:13:47 PJosepherum you could feel absolutely fine running on harmala + endogenous hormones, then experience several hours of hyperensitive crisis following administration of anything external 2014-03-29 22:14:14 PJosepherum this is why food is dangerous with maois; you're disabling a major safety feature 2014-03-29 22:14:39 PJosepherum so it is not ideal to play trial and error with it lol 2014-03-29 22:14:43 PJosepherum hence dirty hack 2014-03-29 22:15:11 PJosepherum i would like to find a safer way to sustain the activation of dmt 2014-03-29 22:15:54 PJosepherum i think harmala is responsible for the distortions i experience too. dmt isn't about visual glitches, it's about detail 2014-03-29 22:16:14 @oskykins ahh, i'm going to try combining it with LSD next 2014-03-29 22:16:16 PJosepherum dmt enhances clarity, it doesn't distort senses 2014-03-29 22:16:29 @oskykins thanks for all the advice dude 2014-03-29 22:16:37 @oskykins i'm saving this convo 2014-03-29 22:16:57 @oskykins so i remember 2014-03-29 22:16:59 PJosepherum be careful, start small. both of those drugs have long half lives. i expect LSD will be unbelievably potent with harmala lol. imagine salvia on it :| 2014-03-29 22:17:51 @oskykins yeah, josif told me it makes it more potent and changes the visuals to more mystical themes 2014-03-29 22:17:51 [22:17] 2014-03-29 22:21:01 <-- PJosepherum (PJosepherum@user/PJosepherum) has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds) 2014-03-29 22:21:09 --> PJosepherum (PJosepherum@Snoonet-06e.1lv.7o2lm4.IP) has joined #psychonautwiki 2014-03-29 22:21:10 <-- PJosepherum (PJosepherum@Snoonet-06e.1lv.7o2lm4.IP) has quit (Changing host) 2014-03-29 22:21:10 --> PJosepherum (PJosepherum@user/PJosepherum) has joined #psychonautwiki 2014-03-29 22:21:20 PJosepherum so i believe 3g peganum contains ~30mg beta carboline alkaloids. these can be separated further into their specific structures. harmine, harmaline, harmane, harmalol, etc, which all offer varying affinity for MAO-A and -B 2014-03-29 22:22:21 PJosepherum optimally, the smallest possible quantity of alkaloids should be determined as to reduce side effects 2014-03-29 22:22:44 PJosepherum rather, the smallest required quantity of alkaloids 2014-03-29 22:22:50 PJosepherum 30mg is too much 2014-03-29 22:23:56 PJosepherum the sum of downstream effects of variations of the beta-carboline structure results in a wide effectivity range 2014-03-29 22:24:33 PJosepherum the sum of harmalas seem to inhibit MAO-A at lower doses, and becomes non-selective at higher doses 2014-03-29 22:25:15 PJosepherum though of course, not all of them will select for -A at all times, since the system is chaotic 2014-03-29 22:26:03 PJosepherum i'm not sure yet what the different mechanisms and effects of MAO-A and MAO-B are, and the result of inhibiting eah 2014-03-29 22:26:04 PJosepherum each 2014-03-29 22:26:26 PJosepherum i need a pure MAO-A ligand and a pure MAO-B ligand to experiment with 2014-03-29 22:27:19 PJosepherum i can't find any dose information for pure harmala alkaloids. shulgin recorded some data though 2014-03-29 22:28:33 PJosepherum "harmaline; DOSAGE : 150 - 300 mg, orally" 2014-03-29 22:28:34 PJosepherum wtf 2014-03-29 22:29:20 PJosepherum "I feel that this compound is unlikely to be attractive to most people, as its major effects are an intoxication with a clouding of thoughts and some disruption of musical relationships." great description 2014-03-29 22:30:09 PJosepherum well actually no that's a pretty basic assumption 2014-03-29 22:31:07 PJosepherum though harmalas cause distortions which are distracting, the peripheral effects can be both euphoric and dysphoric 2014-03-29 22:31:18 PJosepherum depending on external variables and preparation 2014-03-29 22:31:34 PJosepherum but again, mao inhibition is realyl dangerous rofl 2014-03-29 22:33:02 PJosepherum but why am i experiencing mad negative effects from 30mg mixed alkaloids if shulgin reported safety at 150mg harmaline :/ 2014-03-29 22:33:02 [22:33] 2014-03-29 22:33:15 PJosepherum well he didn't report safety, but didn't report unsafety lol 2014-03-29 22:33:31 @oskykins wow you know a lot about this 2014-03-29 22:33:48 @oskykins you can help me breakdown syrian rue 2014-03-29 22:33:51 @oskykins for the wiki 2014-03-29 22:34:42 PJosepherum definitely! it needs expanding. the current lore is way too dangerous, not enough emphasis on extraction and safety 2014-03-29 22:35:11 PJosepherum understanding the mechanism allows for mitigation of negative consequences 2014-03-29 22:35:22 @oskykins yeah, you could write an extraction guide too 2014-03-29 22:36:13 PJosepherum good idea 2014-03-29 22:36:19 PJosepherum (with 500 mg, orally) "I took a half gram of pure synthetic harmaline after fasting for over a day. The resulting nausea was greatly attenuated after I vomited. At this dose there were intense and annoying visual disturbances, and complete collapse of motor co-ordination. I could barely stagger to the bathroom, and for safety's sake locomoted by crawling. Tracers and weird visual ripplings disturbed my sight with open eyes. With eyes clo 2014-03-29 22:36:19 PJosepherum sed, there was eidetic imagery. It had no symbolic significance, just bothersome disjointed sequences that lacked a relevant theme. They proceeded to transform so slowly (in comparison to the speed of my thought) that they were predictable and boring. Throughout the experience I just lay hoping it would end soon. It did not seem as though I had encountered intrapsychic material which was being expressed through somatic symptoms. Rather, 2014-03-29 22:36:20 PJosepherum I felt that I was struggling to metabolize a chemical disruption of my physiological functions. Although the session was not enjoyable, I was satisfied at having educated myself about the effect produced by a penalty dose of this compound." 2014-03-29 22:36:44 PJosepherum i felt this at 30mg 2014-03-29 22:37:12 PJosepherum and probably lower doses, from past extractions which were less efficient 2014-03-29 22:37:14 PJosepherum :/ 2014-03-29 22:37:18 PJosepherum massive conflict of data 2014-03-29 22:38:03 PJosepherum perhaps the variety of beta-carbolines results in potentiation via synergy 2014-03-29 22:38:31 PJosepherum whereas pure harmaline requires more force 2014-03-29 22:38:36 PJosepherum woah xD 2014-03-29 22:39:26 PJosepherum i don't feel safe pushing it, but i really want to know how microdoses of harmalas feel 2014-03-29 22:40:52 PJosepherum i also think abstinence from external chemical influence like food or drugs is necessary for an ensured pleasant experience 2014-03-29 22:41:00 @oskykins yeah, i know. xD this sounds unsafe 2014-03-29 22:41:09 @oskykins but i'll try it for science 2014-03-29 22:41:32 PJosepherum very. lol. if too much messengers build up in the axons, they can damage receptors 2014-03-29 22:42:25 PJosepherum receptors are hyperactivated, causing downstream distortions. the neuron mitigates the magnified signal by reducing the number of receptors presented on the membrane 2014-03-29 22:42:29 PJosepherum within the axon 2014-03-29 22:43:27 @oskykins lol shit 2014-03-29 22:44:27 PJosepherum i can't discern which part of my eyes hurt and why. i think it's either a central headache from axon flooding or strained ocular muscles from the REM 2014-03-29 22:44:45 PJosepherum harmalas make me very twitchy 2014-03-29 22:45:02 PJosepherum another distortion; bugs in muscular signalling 2014-03-29 22:45:30 PJosepherum caused by either GABA or epinephrine 2014-03-29 22:45:44 PJosepherum probably involves both 2014-03-29 22:46:25 @oskykins how much mimosa again? 2014-03-29 22:46:38 PJosepherum 3g @ ~0.5% DMT 2014-03-29 22:46:51 PJosepherum so 15mg? 2014-03-29 22:47:01 PJosepherum 15mg dmt, 30mg harmalas 2014-03-29 22:47:12 PJosepherum the dmt was very active 2014-03-29 22:47:33 PJosepherum even at 5mg, i have activated dmt with random doses of harmala 2014-03-29 22:49:00 PJosepherum harmalas potentiate the effect of consumed monamines because they inhibit their deactivation of monamines 2014-03-29 22:49:00 [22:49] 2014-03-29 22:50:09 PJosepherum next experiment is to figure out how low i can dose harmalas to activate dmt 2014-03-29 22:51:53 PJosepherum is my math right? 3% total alkaloids, 3g / 3% == 90mg! not 30 2014-03-29 22:52:10 PJosepherum shulgin's data makes more sense now :) 2014-03-29 22:52:35 PJosepherum so 1g @ 3% is 30mg. this is my next step. with abstinence from stimulants 2014-03-29 22:53:22 PJosepherum sedatives are better tolerated but to avoid negative effects, i'll fast before consumption 2014-03-29 22:53:44 PJosepherum and post consumption until the harmalas wear off 2014-03-29 22:53:58 PJosepherum brb! :) 2014-03-29 22:54:28 PJosepherum 2014-03-29 23:00:00 [22:54] 2014-03-29 23:01:28 PJosepherum i should really rest 2014-03-29 23:01:34 PJosepherum and recover 2014-03-29 23:01:37 PJosepherum at least i didn't die xD 2014-03-29 23:01:38 PJosepherum lol 2014-03-29 23:01:45 PJosepherum again 2014-03-29 23:02:09 @oskykins lol that was you almost dying? 2014-03-29 23:02:24 @oskykins wait when did you die 2014-03-29 23:02:32 PJosepherum i know to be extra extra careful now. it's really not a good idea for the internet lore to suggest such a basic preparation of peganum harmala 2014-03-29 23:02:52 PJosepherum almost die, i haven't actually died yet 2014-03-29 23:02:59 PJosepherum because i continue to exist 2014-03-29 23:03:18 PJosepherum every time i've tried harmalas so far, i've experienced loads of negative effects 2014-03-29 23:03:53 PJosepherum punctured GI tract, burning out my axons 2014-03-29 23:04:01 PJosepherum twitching, eye strain 2014-03-29 23:04:16 PJosepherum nausea, coughing 2014-03-29 23:04:35 PJosepherum it's felt very violent 2014-03-29 23:05:51 PJosepherum but i seem to survive. the only way to relieve the tension was to meditate and do yoga 2014-03-29 23:06:28 PJosepherum and even that was oly slightly effective 2014-03-29 23:07:05 PJosepherum modification of DMT's structure could result in the goal of prolonging activation 2014-03-29 23:07:30 PJosepherum add protective moieties rather than disable an endogenous neural safety feature 2014-03-29 23:07:35 PJosepherum hmm 2014-03-29 23:07:42 PJosepherum much safer 2014-03-29 23:08:00 PJosepherum 5-MeO-DMT is a lot more potent 2014-03-29 23:08:06 PJosepherum but still short lived 2014-03-29 23:08:45 --> DMT_Entity|8509 (DMT_Entity8@Snoonet-ihf.p32.e9tvh6.IP) has joined #psychonautwiki 2014-03-29 23:09:13 PJosepherum i'm not sure what structural changes could result in prolonged activation, but this would be the best route for sustaining the cognitive clarity of DMT 2014-03-29 23:09:15 <-- DMT_Entity|8509 (DMT_Entity8@Snoonet-ihf.p32.e9tvh6.IP) has quit (Quit: - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-03-29 23:10:22 PJosepherum sedatives may actually reduce negative effects of harmalas 2014-03-29 23:10:35 PJosepherum i expect a benzo would reduce the stress significantly 2014-03-29 23:10:50 PJosepherum opioids would just mask it 2014-03-29 23:11:59 PJosepherum anyways, thanks for the discussion osca, surgeon, i'm gonna sleep for a bit and recover :)